1911 Safety Not Working
Ok, hear me out on this one. Also, I know there are plenty of legal/liability reasons to not actually modify a gun this way, but here are my thoughts.I'm thinking more and more that the thumb safety on a 1911 is pointless, even when carrying cocked. Here is what has lead me to this conclusion.Recently, when unholstering my Kimber at bedtime, I discovered the thumb safety was disengaged.
Check the ammo in another 1911 to make sure that it isn't the ammo. New one was off my Springfield, and still not working. Has to be the barrel or I am just out of ideas. The pin hits the primer, because I see small dents. The series 80 linkage has different length toggles to adjust the firing pin safety. That can cause the pin to drag. 1911 grip safety does not work, grip safety does not work on 1911, grip safety not working, why does my 1911 grip safety not work. Springfield XD Forum. Forums Other Handgun Talk M1911 Forums. Search Forums; Recent Posts; Active Topics; Gallery. Categories; Explore User's Albums; New Albums. I borrowed the 1911 cutaway pic to show the problem I'm having I replaced the hammer and sear on my TRP with Ed Brown components which work great in every other respect except that it takes some force to get the thumb safety all the way up with the hammer at full cock.
Of course, my finger was nowhere near the trigger, so nothing happened and I was not even alarmed, just a bit curious as to what managed to come in contact with it and disengage it. It had not been out of its holster ( a Galco strong side pancake) since being put on that morning.
This is not the first time this has happened to me. The safety is fine and is not worn/broken and engages/disengages with appropriate pressure and a nice little click. This is also not the first 1911 I have had do this.I also have and CCW a Glock 21 with 4 pound connector bar. The only manual safety on it is the one integrated into the trigger face.So I carry a 1911 that has three safeties, Thumb, Grip, and keeping my finger of the trigger. My 1911 is cocked when I carry it.I carry a Glock that has 1 safety, keeping my finger off the trigger. My Glock is cocked when I carry it, not in the sense of a traditional hammer cocked weapon, but functionally the same.See where I'm going with this?How many of us have fired a 1911 and had our strong side thumb bump and engage the safety while firing?
I have, yes, I have since trained a lot and fire with my strong side thumb holding the safety down, but wouldn't it be easier if it just wasn't there?If a Glock is safe enough to carry with only a trigger safety, wouldn't such a 1911 be even safer with its grip safety?Wouldn't a 1911 without the thumb safety be even quicker into action and a lot simpler in training?Thoughts? I would never carry an unlocked and cocked 1911. The thumb safety is there for a reason.let's look at the differences between the glock and 1911:the glock has a long trigger pull. The 1911 doesn't.the stock glock has a heavy trigger pull.at least compared to the 1911.holstering a glock (properly) leaves all the safety functions in place. Holstering an unlocked and cocked 1911 has 2/3 or 1/2 of the safety systems disengaged (thumb, grip, trigger and half- if equipped).i would consider any bypass or non-use of a safety system to be negligent at best. You have a right to carry, but you also have an obligation to do so with the utmost concern for the safety of everyone around you.if you are finding your thumb safety disengaged, and you're sure your pistol is mechanically sound.you need to evaluate your holster.
I would never carry an unlocked and cocked 1911. The thumb safety is there for a reason.let's look at the differences between the glock and 1911:the glock has a long trigger pull. The 1911 doesn't.the stock glock has a heavy trigger pull.at least compared to the 1911.holstering a glock (properly) leaves all the safety functions in place.
Holstering an unlocked and cocked 1911 has 2/3 or 1/2 of the safety systems disengaged (thumb, grip, trigger and half- if equipped).i would consider any bypass or non-use of a safety system to be negligent at best. You have a right to carry, but you also have an obligation to do so with the utmost concern for the safety of everyone around you.if you are finding your thumb safety disengaged, and you're sure your pistol is mechanically sound.you need to evaluate your holster. Click to expand.Just to be clear.
I'm not considering or advocating this being done to my or anyone else's 1911. I'm thinking more along the lines of a factory redesign. I'm just stating that from a functional perspective a 1911 without a safety would still be at least as safe as a Glock.Regarding the Glock trigger pull, yes, it is a bit longer, but the Glock factory weight of 5.5 pounds is well within the range of what many 1911 ship with. I'll take the argument a step further.
How about a 1911 without a thumb safety, and a factory trigger pull of 5.5 lbs?A 1911 with 1 of its safeties disabled still has 1 more safety in place than a stock Glock.You pull a Glock from a holster in a firing grip and pull the trigger and it goes bang. How would a 1911 that worked the exact same way be any less safe?Also, I'm not finding my thumb safety disengaged on a regular basis at all, but it has happened to me more than once.
Didn't take that as argumentative at all, no worries here. I think just removing the safety and leaving the trigger pull on the slightly heavier side shouldn't disqualify it from still being a 1911. To me the core of the 1911 is the grip angle, the single action only operation, the straight pull trigger, and the looks. Evolution has always been part of the 1911's heritage. Competitive shooters(and some carriers) used to pin or tie down the grip safety. Para and others brought us the double stack, firing pin safeties of different designs have been added. Lately, some smith's have been modding the thumb safety and/or frame to allow the slide to be cycled while the safety is engaged.I know some purists will say that these things keep a gun from being a 1911.
I assume these people all have scars on the strong hands from being bitten by their gun's spur hammers and lack of a beavertail?I'm not saying gun safety isn't important. I'm wondering is sometimes extra safeties can actually increase accidents? The 1911 is often considered a gun that requires higher levels of training than some others, especially if its going to be operated under stress. Maybe some simplification of the controls could increase safety.
I think maybe some of it is psychological. With the Glock (and many other) the striker is already in a coked status(at least partially), its just hidden from view. The 1911's hammer is out there for everyone to see, all bright and shiny sticking out top when holstered. I agree with doktorziplok.
There is a lot more to it than just the length or weight of the trigger pull. The Glock is NOT full cocked when it is at rest. The amount of force available to the striker in the at rest (loaded) position is not sufficient to fire a cartridge. Pulling the trigger first retracts the striker to fullcock before releasing it to fire. That also releases the firing pin safety (which is also present on later models of the 1911, but not the original). That is the big difference, and in my opinion, the flaw in your reasoning.
A full cocked 1911 has the potential available to fire at any time, all that is needed is to release the hammer. The energy is already stored in the hammer spring, rarin' to go. The Glock has to have more energy added before it can fire, it doesn't have enough already stored in the spring. I understand the Glock still need more energy applied before the striker can fire the gun. My point is, the energy is applied by the finger, same as in the 1911. I have heard more stories lately of accidental discharge of Glock because of objects (even the Glock supplied storage box in the early days) getting inside the trigger guard.I guess I should have initially specified that the 1911 have a firing pin safety to be considered in this discussion.
On the Kimber I referenced, the firing pin can't move forward unless the grip safety is depressed, and the trigger is pulled. This still sounds like 1 extra layer of safety over the Glock even if the thumb safety was gone.Again, I'm not suggesting this as something that should be done to my or anyone else's 1911. I'm suggesting that a redesign/factory mod. That removes the thumb safety, includes a positive firing pin safety, and uses a crisp 5.5 to 6 lb trigger.
We carry lots of guns that have fully compressed firing pin spring with nothing more than a single safety to keep them from firing. How many of us go hunting with bolt action rifles or shotguns that are cocked(firing pin spring compressed fully) with just a single safety? Click to expand.Wrong. The energy is already stored in the spring on the 1911, which is compressed by the slide moving back during the firing/loading cycle. All the trigger does is release the hammer. It doesn't add more energy, it doesn't finish cocking the hammer, it doesn't do anything else but release the hammer.
When the gun is cocked and unlocked, there is about 1/16' of metal to metal contact preventing the gun from firing. That's why the thumb safety engages the hammer, not the sear. The grip safety blocks the trigger bar from moving back, but it will not keep the sear from slipping. If that happens, the hammer drops unless the thumb safety is locking the hammer back. Pray the firing pin safety actually works. Again, I'm not suggesting this as something that should be done to my or anyone else's 1911. I'm suggesting that a redesign/factory mod.
That removes the thumb safety, includes a positive firing pin safety, and uses a crisp 5.5 to 6 lb trigger. We carry lots of guns that have fully compressed firing pin spring with nothing more than a single safety to keep them from firing. How many of us go hunting with bolt action rifles or shotguns that are cocked(firing pin spring compressed fully) with just a single safety? In a word, no. I carried a 1911 for work for about six years, and pressing the thumb safety down is effortless with a proper firing grip - there is no extra or counterintuitive motion involved at all. Likewise, if the safety is being re-engaged during firing, your grip is wrong. Manual safeties don't get easier to operate than the 1911's; like the grip safety, when you assume a firing grip the safety comes off, so what would possibly be gained by removing it?
All of this is in addition to the safety concerns others have pointed out. IMHO.The safe carriage of a 1911 requires a level of training so that certain aspects become 'muscle memory'. If any of these aspects are not palatable to one, or not learnable for whatever reason.I beleive that person should look for a different carry weapon. The 1911 is a dependable, and safe weapon when handled and carried correctly. Alterations to its design are asking for trouble, and a redesign would create another weapon that pretty much exists already.AGAIN.Only my opinion, and I am not 'the expert'.
Click to expand.We may be getting a bit off track here. Again, I'm not suggesting we start pulling the safeties from our own guns, or carrying them off-safe. I'm talking from the standpoint of a minor factory redesign. Compare the 1911 to the current Springfield XD. They are both single action, they both have grip safeties, they both have firing pin safeties (or can in current versions) and they both are carried fully cocked with a round in the chamber.
The only difference for the sake of this argument is the 1911 has an external hammer, and the 1991 has a relatively small amount of positive sear engagement when cocked.I've already proposed that a 1911 minus thumb safety should have a 5lb + trigger pull. Could this heavier trigger allow for a more positive sear engagement?As far as the external hammer a couple of thoughts come to mind. First, can't a positive firing pin safety be relied upon to stop forward motion of the pin even if the gun lands on the hammer in a fall? Secondly, can't a transfer bar system be used in conjunction with the grip safety so that the hammer can only transfer energy to the firing pin when the grip safety is engaged?
My Kimber uses a strut system to deactivate the firing pin safety, couldn't the same strut activate a transfer bar?
1911 Thumb Safety Not Working
Originally Posted By SDSG:Op is afraid of guns because he doesn't know any better. Get some training time with a professional. Seriously While carrying a 1911 in condition one before, I had the safety work itself off. I was very glad to have the redundant grip safety then. I have a 1911A1 and carry lefthanded and righthanded. I've had the thumb safety 'work itself' off multiple times.
The first time I freaked out because I thought I forgot to put it on while holstering. After that, I didn't care. Is there additional risk? You know why I didn't care? I only have holsters which completely cover the trigger area, and are made out of quality material.
1911 Safety Not Working
Ain't nothing pulling that trigger unless it comes out of the holster, and a lot of my holsters are retention holsters.I've never thought I might accidentally shoot something if I didn't have a grip safety. Originally Posted By SDSG:Op is afraid of guns because he doesn't know any better. Get some training time with a professional. Seriously While carrying a 1911 in condition one before, I had the safety work itself off. I was very glad to have the redundant grip safety then. And here is where I show my obvious noobiness for 1911s. Condition one is where the 1911 is loaded, one in the chamber, with the hammer cocked and thumb safety on, right?
Isnt there special holsters that have a small strap that goes over the back of the 1911, between the firing pin and hammer? Originally Posted By SDSG:Op is afraid of guns because he doesn't know any better. Get some training time with a professional. Seriously While carrying a 1911 in condition one before, I had the safety work itself off. I was very glad to have the redundant grip safety then. And here is where I show my obvious noobiness for 1911s. Condition one is where the 1911 is loaded, one in the chamber, with the hammer cocked and thumb safety on, right?
1911 Safety Not Working
Isnt there special holsters that have a small strap that goes over the back of the 1911, between the firing pin and hammer?Yes, that is correct. And if I carried a 1911, I, too, would want the holster to have one of those 'interrupter' thumb breaks.